Why secret prisons shouldn't be allowed, period

[optikaL`]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14897315/page/

TORONTO, Sept. 18 - Canadian intelligence officials passed false warnings and bad information to American agents about a Muslim Canadian citizen, after which U.S. authorities secretly whisked him to Syria, where he was tortured, a judicial report found Monday.

The report, released in Ottawa, was the result of a 2 1/2-year inquiry that represented one of the first public investigations into mistakes made as part of the United States' "extraordinary rendition" program, which has secretly spirited suspects to foreign countries for interrogation by often brutal methods.


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The inquiry, which focused on the Canadian intelligence services, found that agents who were under pressure to find terrorists after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, falsely labeled an Ottawa computer consultant, Maher Arar, as a dangerous radical. They asked U.S. authorities to put him and his wife, a university economist, on the al-Qaeda "watchlist," without justification, the report said.

Arar was also listed as "an Islamic extremist individual" who was in the Washington area on Sept. 11. The report concluded that he had no involvement in Islamic extremism and was on business in San Diego that day, said the head of the inquiry commission, Ontario Justice Dennis O'Connor.

Coffin-sized dungeon
Arar, now 36, was detained by U.S. authorities as he changed planes in New York on Sept. 26, 2002. He was held for questioning for 12 days, then flown by jet to Jordan and driven to Syria. He was beaten, forced to confess to having trained in Afghanistan -- where he never has been -- and then kept in a coffin-size dungeon for 10 months before he was released, the Canadian inquiry commission found.

O'Connor concluded "categorically there is no evidence" that Arar did anything wrong or was a security threat.

Although the report centered on Canadian actions, the counsel for the commission, Paul Cavalluzzo, said the results show that the U.S. practice of renditions "ought to be reviewed."

"This is really the first report in the Western world that has had access to all of the government documents we wanted and saw the practice of extraordinary rendition in full color," he said in an interview from Ottawa. "The ramifications were that an innocent Canadian was tortured, his life was put upside down, and it set him back years and years."

Arar, who came to Canada from Syria when he was 17, said in Ottawa that he was thankful that he had been vindicated. He expressed surprise and anger at learning Monday that Canadian authorities also had asked U.S. authorities to put his wife on the al-Qaeda watchlist.

"Today Justice O'Connor has cleared my name and restored my reputation," he said at a news conference. He said the individual Canadian officials should be held accountable: "Justice requires no less."

‘An innocent man’
O'Connor said it was beyond his mandate to recommend discipline for any individual.

"He really is a victim of authorities in three governments, as well as being an innocent man," Irwin Cottler, a member of parliament from the Liberal Party, said after the report was issued.

Stockwell Day, the federal government's public safety minister, said the treatment of Arar was "regrettable. We hope, with any future situations, never to see this happen again."

Since Sept. 11, the CIA, working with other intelligence agencies, has captured an estimated 3,000 people in its effort to dismantle terrorist networks. Many of them have been secretly taken by "extraordinary rendition" to other countries, hidden from U.S. legal requirements and often subject to torture.

Those renditions are often carried out by CIA agents dressed head to toe in black, wearing masks, who blindfold their subjects and dress them in black. The practice is generating increased opposition by other countries; Italy is seeking to prosecute CIA officers who allegedly abducted a Muslim cleric in Milan in February 2003, and German prosecutors are investigating the CIA's activities in their country.

Although details of the renditions and the destinations of those held are secret, President Bush has confirmed the existence of CIA-run prisons throughout the world. Some of the subjects of renditions have been held in those prisons.

O'Connor also recommended that the government review the case of three other Muslim Canadian citizens, who were detained when they traveled through Syria, to determine what role Canadian authorities played in their imprisonment.

One man. How many others are still currently locked up without being convicted of a single thing? If I were in charge, heads would roll, literally. As we know, we'll just scream "hey, terrorists! unpatriotic!!" and this will shuffle to the back of the news block and ignored.

How many "means" does it take to justify the "end"?

[8th]

obviously that is not a good thing. i dont condone torture persay. I think secret prisons are probably neccessary though. Once again, im not saying take people for no reason to a coffin sized dugeon and toture them. But i think if we take known [as in we caught them on the battle field fighting us or people solidly linked to terrorist attacks] to a secret prison and interigate them, thats not a problem to me. And i dont care if we put them in 'really cold weather' or jam 'rap music' to piss them off.

[optikaL`]

I agree that known enemy POW's should be able to be tortured to a degree for information, but I don't agree with everyday citizens being taken away without any evidence and having no chance of being released until we see fit. They have no trial at all. Its a modern day Salem witch hunt.

I mean, how do we know how many others like this case are being held? We don't. When our own government is able to hide the persecution of citizens without a conviction or even a trial, we're on a slippery slope. How long before people who they believe to be nothing more than detrimental to our country, such as outspoken opposition to whichever administration is in power, find their way into these prisons? They could easily say that they're aiding terror because they're standing in the way of bills that the administration wants pushed through. Hell, they don't even have to say anything at all which is the scariest part. I could find my way there if I'm outspoken and have a name that sounds muslim.

You better believe if they knocked on my door, I'm taking as many of them out as I can. I'm licensed to carry, but the coroner will be doing much of the lifting.

[8th]

Originally Posted by optikaL`

I agree that known enemy POW's should be able to be tortured to a degree for information, but I don't agree with everyday citizens being taken away without any evidence and having no chance of being released until we see fit. They have no trial at all. Its a modern day Salem witch hunt.

were basically in agreement. Obviously we should not scoop up inoocent civilians just because there name is muhameed and toture them. However, I think that they are needed at this point in time, but i can see them being misused if power hungry people are in power, or something like that. But secret prisions have, i would estimate, always been used when we are at war. I support them, as long as there is a sunset i guess. I dont know, i kinda complex.

[optikaL`]

I don't mind prisons having secret locations, but all inmates should be recorded on a log open to the public and have a trial after indictment, also available to the public. Convicted sexual predators have to let an entire neighborhood know that they're moving in, yet we aren't allowed knowledge of the people being held under our country's name? Aside from the "end" of their imprisonment, which we don't have any information of in our prisons to compare, this isn't much different from the concentration camps.

[8th]

Originally Posted by optikaL`

I don't mind prisons having secret locations, but all inmates should be recorded on a log open to the public and have a trial after indictment, also available to the public.

thats fine, but in trials of suspected terrorists we cannot make alot of the evidence public. Alot of the evidence is gathered by undercover agents in the field and revealing the info would reveal there identity and put alot of our agents in danger. It would also ruin future info we might possibly get.

[Boogie Smalls]

Canadian intelligence officials passed false warnings and bad information to American

What can you expect from canadians.
Lowsy ass country.

[8th]

way to add to the discussion

[20/20vis]

it seems everyone agrees that you cant just be grabbing random Muslims and interogating them but who's decision is it when something like this happens. I'm from Toronto and besides reading a small article (not on the front page) in the newspaper, i haven't heard about this story anywhere. The people who made the decision to nab this guy should be held responsible and there should be more attention brought to this subject. the Canadian officials should have to explain their lack of solid intel.

[optikaL`]

Originally Posted by 20/20vis

the Canadian officials should have to explain their lack of solid intel.

In that same train of thought, shouldn't we ask the same of our administration with Iraq? I've yet to hear a full explanation.

[8th]

Opt..you know EVERYONE elses intelligence world wide said he had WMD also. It wasn't just our government. And i think our main goal was to set up a democracy in the middle east and watch democracy spread. Im not saying that was a good goal or a logical one, but that was probably our main goal.

[optikaL`]

Originally Posted by 8th

Opt..you know EVERYONE elses intelligence world wide said he had WMD also.

You mean besides our very own INR, or the UN weapon inspectors that were actually there? Don't play that shit, because we both know that statement is bullshit. We were going to war from the beginning of his first term. If we were so concerned with the intelligence to be correct, why didn't Bush hand over the PDB's? You can say what you want about the intelligence, but the administration are the ones that picked and chose the "facts" to represent. Who are you going to trust to tell you what a sign says, someone thousands of miles away looking through a telescope or someone two feet in front of it? We chose the former.

You and I both know Ritter's final conclusion of the inspection, and what did this administration do? They labeled him as "unpatriotic", slandered him and dove head first into a war we cannot win.

Lets not even get into the fact that they've put off Phase Two of the Senate Report, focused around whether or not the intelligence community was put under pressure from the administration. We've already have evidence of Cheney putting pressure on the CIA.

"Curveball really provided 98 percent of the assessment as to whether or not the Iraqis had a biological weapon," Roberts said.

"Yet the DIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency, knew of his background. He has a very troubled background."

CNN.com - Pentagon's prewar intelligence role questioned - Jul 11, 2004

But nobody inside the U.S. government had ever actually spoken to the informant—except the Pentagon analyst, who concluded the man was an alcoholic and utterly useless as a source. He recalled that Curve Ball had shown up for their only meeting nursing a "terrible hangover."

The CIA official quickly responded: "Let's keep in mind the fact that this war's going to happen regardless of what Curve Ball said or didn't say," he wrote. "The Powers That Be probably aren't terribly interested in whether Curve Ball knows what he's talking about."

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5412317/site/newsweek

We built our entire "intelligence" around a fucking guy they codenamed "Curveball", which itself now just seems like a bad inside joke.

Since we went to war for two reasons, Saddam having WMD's and links to terrorist groups, now that both have been shown to be false we should place him back in power. Seriously. We'd be better off and would really make us think twice before only accepting intelligence that we agree with.

[Christ]

We should really be focused on other things...Those people have been at war with each other in South west Asia for centuries. Not saying thas good business ...jus not ours.


Now look what we have got ourselves into.

We were hated..yes.....But now we are the #1 target.

[zerohour]

this world is getting worse by the minute

[atreides_heir]

Physical torture is not a justified action. Period. As the original article states, Arar, an innocent man, confesses to crimes that he did not commit because of the torture he was subject to. If United States interrogators were to stop beating their detainees and rather chose to offer deals and minimal sentences for valuable information the United States would gain two great advantages. One, we would receive valuable and accurate information rather than false confessions. Two, and this is the important one, once released the detainees would not go home and speak of the horrible crimes committed against them which in the case of Arar, he would not be motivated to bring a court case against the states and publicize our practices, and if Arar were actually an “enemy combatant” he would not be able to go home and tell of the crimes without lying, which would help our relationship with the moderates who is ultimately who we need to appeal to.

Atreides