Optikal and Kahlm's discussion thread

[Kaeo.Seru]

1st off I'm only starting this thread cuz you're opinion is one of the few I respect so why not have a civil debate? well not realy a debate more like cross education. cuz you know more about Stalin and the camps than I do and I know more about The History of Slavery than you(I was an African American history Major).

last thing you said:
His reign was around 25 years, I believe. The difference being slavery in America was not even close to what Stalin's gulags camps. In America, the black man was looked upon as a product worth money, so seldom would they be tortured or killed unless they tried to escape or learn. In gulags, you were literally worked to death. You were sent there to die but they'd get the maximum output from you before that end was met. I'm sure if you had the choice between the two, which you'd pick. If they didn't pick you to have the luxury of being death labor then you got to stay at home and choose which family members starved, and in which order since you couldn't leave your village and no food came in. You could also work towards your freedom in America while the only freedom one could aim for in a gulag would be the freedom of their inevitable death.


1st off. Thousands of Africans never survived the Middle Pasage from Africa to the United States. Some died from disease, some from Starvation, others were thrown overboard because the crew did not have enough provisions to feed the slaves and themselves. Along with the occasional shipwreck.

2nd. The 1st stops after Africa were usually the Islands in the Carribean or Settlements off the north east coast of South America. This is where the "Seasoning" process began. Seasoning is where they taught the Africans how to be slaves. This involved teaching Language and Job specific training, as the Africans did not speak their language nor knew how to do the work they were being forced to do. And during this process thousands more died mostly from insect related diseases(yellow fever & malaria) as they were out of their element. Others died from brutal beatings as punishment for "disobedience".

3rd. The earliest slaves were sometimes allowed to work for their freedom. Those were the indentrued servants. But they were not a part of the mass shipment of slaves that you are speaking off. Once whites figure out that "Chattle" slavery was more profitable many Slave owners stopped giving their "property" the chance to have their human rights again. But, yes, Some slaves still managed to earn their freedom maybe 1 out of 25,000 had that chance(if that). but slaves were "generally" kept untill they died and their children were slaves until death and so on. So you had generations Born to be slaves and die as slaves. average life expectancy was about the age of 40. And when the Master died his slaves were inherited by his children.


And like I said b4 this went on for HUNDREDS of years. This goes beyond working in fields or dieing in a gulag. The affects of slavery affect the united states to this day Economically, Socially, and Mentally. if you ever get a chance Look up the Willie Lynch papers.

You also said this:
Secondly, the average lower-class American's economic situation is FAR and away better than almost anything in the Ukraine. One could easily live off welfare, its just Americans are predisposed to believe luxuries such as cable TV, cars and rims are necessities. People who always say how badly the lower class Americans have it seriously need to visit some other countries. Next time you see Rah, ask him how it is over there as he lived there for a period of his life and visits every few years. So while you're being "economically repressed" you're still living far and away better than about 95% of the world.


i'm pretty sure you weren't talking to me but I feel the need to address this Beacause what you say is true. I havent lived in other countries but i've done the resaerch. United States low class is the richest of the lowest. if that makes since. but being poor here is the same as being poor anywhere else. I'm talking DIRT-Bum poor. not welfare poor. and its not always easy to live off welfare. I have family members on it and its still a daily struggle. trust me on that on fam...

but anyways on a side note any and all freeposts or dumb ass posts WILL BE DELETED. this is for serious discussion only. mature heads only

[run]

so whats your point?

you want a handout from the government or something? or just for everybody to recognise what black people went through? Obviously it still affects america because there is still racism. Thats never gonna change.

sorry to intrude in your thread.

[Kaeo.Seru]

did i say I wanted a government Handout?

1st off I'm only starting this thread cuz you're opinion is one of the few I respect so why not have a civil debate? well not realy a debate more like cross education. cuz you know more about Stalin and the camps than I do and I know more about The History of Slavery than you(I was an African American history Major).

this thread is NOT about repairations.

i dont know how much Opt knows about the history of slavery. but I would like to know more about Stalin and Gulags and the whole thing. and Opt seems like the man to talk to so why not share information?

[Shear Kaughn]

this thread is 100 percent true.......i have taken a sociology class...and its all right here in this thread....the reason why so many black americans are in poverty today is becuase of slavery....its a god damn shame..and as a black american i'm disgusted by it..

[optikaL`]

You make great points. In the end, both were terrible events but my anger derives from only one of the scenarios even being acknowledged in today's age. We seem to forget all the atrocities done in Stalin's regime but instead focus on American slavery and the holocaust. Why the holocaust receives almost all of the focus of WWII is beyond me when most likely more Poles were killed off by Stalin than jews by the Nazi regime. Basically, the allies allowed Stalin to get away with, and continue, his murderous grip because of his helping the allies in WWII. Funny that he didn't help the allies until after Germany turned on him, yet he still got away with it. The holocaust was terrible yet there are things occuring even today that are either equal to, or even more disturbing than it - Darfur comes to mind.

The similarities between American slavery and Stalin's reign are striking, but with the one stark contrast - African slaves were there to build a country, the gulags were there to cleanse one.

Declassified Soviet documents appear to state that the property of the deported Crimean Tatars and other minorities from Crimea during the World War II should be shipped to the new place and each deported family should be given a loan of about 5000 roubles for 7 years without charge for interest to start up in the new place [12][13]. J. Otto Pohl found that deportees were actually forced to leave their belongings behind, their property was confiscated and they have never received any compensation for it [14] and that the loans did not exist. Along with the deportation of Crimea Tatars, the Soviet government issued an order to deport Crimean Greeks, Armenians and Bulgarians [14]. Crimean Greeks were rounded up by the NKVD and put on overcrowded unhygienic trains for deportation; they lost their homes, their livestock, and most of their moveable property[14]. Deportees were exiled to special settlements, where conditions weren't significantly different from the Gulag[14].

During Stalin's rule the following ethnic groups were deported completely or partially: Ukrainians, Poles, Koreans, Volga Germans, Crimean Tatars, Kalmyks, Chechens, Ingush, Balkars, Karachays, Meskhetian Turks, Finns, Bulgarians, Greeks, Armenians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, and Jews. Large numbers of Kulaks, regardless of their nationality, were resettled to Siberia and Central Asia. Deportations took place in appalling conditions, often by cattle truck, and hundreds of thousands of deportees died en route [15]. Those who survived were forced to work without pay in the labour camps. Many of the deportees died of hunger or other conditions.

[Boogie Smalls]

the reason why so many black americans are in poverty today is becuase of slavery....

This is quite possibly the lamest excuse that an African American can say other then. "I thought she was on birth-control".

The reason why so many Afro-Americans live in poverty is because they choose to.
Contrary to what they believe no one is holding them back. There are so many opportunities
out there, they just choose not to work. Instead they live off of goverment money. And blame people other then themselves for there own misfortune.

[Hoodini]

waah. are you saying that the color of our skin has no effect on what types of jobs we get?

[Inn Deppth]

Originally Posted by Booogie

This is quite possibly the lamest excuse that an African American can say other then. "I thought she was on birth-control".

The reason why so many Afro-Americans live in poverty is because they choose to.
Contrary to what they believe no one is holding them back. There are so many opportunities
out there, they just choose not to work. Instead they live off of goverment money. And blame people other then themselves for there own misfortune.

thats true for all people below poverty, or homeless people. i saw some documentary how they offered like 20,000 jobs and only about 100 or so accepted

[Kaeo.Seru]

Originally Posted by Booogie

This is quite possibly the lamest excuse that an African American can say other then. "I thought she was on birth-control".

The reason why so many Afro-Americans live in poverty is because they choose to.
Contrary to what they believe no one is holding them back. There are so many opportunities
out there, they just choose not to work. Instead they live off of goverment money. And blame people other then themselves for there own misfortune.

actually your'e wrong there. Slavery was an institution that set the Social, and Economic status of all african americans back. Yes, it still haunts us today, it is the reason why we're still at a defecit. Its the difference between being wealthy and rich. They sound the same but they are quite different. and contrary to popular belief there are more White Americans on welfare than African Americans its a FACT not a belief or opinion. Its a stone cold Statistic,irrefutable. and the one thing that is holding African Americans back is Theirselves. actually i should say OURselves. the minds of the African American community have been polluted. And SLAVERY is The Cause of it. Read the Willie Lynch Papers. He talks about how to break down the slaves psychologially and separate them. We were made to believe we were inferior and that beleif still carries on to this day. i wish i had more time to contiue this but i dont i have to tend to my Son. but i will be back

[optikaL`]

Originally Posted by Booogie

This is quite possibly the lamest excuse that an African American can say other then. "I thought she was on birth-control".

The reason why so many Afro-Americans live in poverty is because they choose to.
Contrary to what they believe no one is holding them back. There are so many opportunities
out there, they just choose not to work. Instead they live off of goverment money. And blame people other then themselves for there own misfortune.

I disagree with that generalizations, sure they are some that fit that description but not that many. If there are no establishments in your vicinity you can't make money unless you have a vehicle, yet you cannot buy a vehicle unless you have the money. What are your choices? Bus costs money. You're basically left with the only option, being some sort of crime. Factor in such duties as taking care of a sibling or a child and you can see where you have little to no opportunity to work.

[Criticize]

"and contrary to popular belief there are more White Americans on welfare than African Americans its a FACT not a belief or opinion. Its a stone cold Statistic"

statistics lie, is this on a number basis? im assuming it is, there are more white americans than "african" americans, therefore it is a horrible representation, statistics can be twisted to say anything.



"waah. are you saying that the color of our skin has no effect on what types of jobs we get?"

no at all, with afirmitive action minorities have a better chance of getting work, its a choice not to go out and find jobs,

[optikaL`]

Originally Posted by Criticize

no at all, with afirmitive action minorities have a better chance of getting work, its a choice not to go out and find jobs,

In fairness, white women receive more benefit from affirmative action than minorities.

[Boogie Smalls]

actually your'e wrong there. Slavery was an institution that set the Social, and Economic status of all african americans back. Yes, it still haunts us today, it is the reason why we're still at a defecit. Its the difference between being wealthy and rich. They sound the same but they are quite different. and contrary to popular belief there are more White Americans on welfare than African Americans its a FACT not a belief or opinion. Its a stone cold Statistic,irrefutable. and the one thing that is holding African Americans back is Theirselves. actually i should say OURselves. the minds of the African American community have been polluted. And SLAVERY is The Cause of it. Read the Willie Lynch Papers. He talks about how to break down the slaves psychologially and separate them. We were made to believe we were inferior and that beleif still carries on to this day. i wish i had more time to contiue this but i dont i have to tend to my Son. but i will be back

Slavery ended 200+ years ago. And to be using that as an excuse
is simply incomprehensible. Sure 200+ years ago it might have set the economic standard.
But since then how many successful black people have there been. It is those people that
worked/are working hard to get out of the pit of poverty. It is those people who should be rolemodels for younger black generations..

And SLAVERY is The Cause of it. Read the Willie Lynch Papers. He talks about how to break down the slaves psychologially and separate them. We were made to believe we were inferior and that beleif still carries on to this day

Again, slavery ended 200+ years ago. I'm sure that neither your mother, grandmother, great grandmother and possibly your great-great grandmother where slaves. That's four generations. Are you to tell me that in four generations this mentality hasn't changed.
Are you to tell me that this menatality that blacks are inferior is some how hereditary.
African Americans believe this to be true, because they choose to. Not because they have been brain washed.

[Criticize]

women in general, i cant deny that.

but affirmitive action really limits the excuses minorities have for lack of work due to their skin colour.

[Boogie Smalls]

I disagree with that generalizations, sure they are some that fit that description but not that many. If there are no establishments in your vicinity you can't make money unless you have a vehicle, yet you cannot buy a vehicle unless you have the money. What are your choices? Bus costs money. You're basically left with the only option, being some sort of crime. Factor in such duties as taking care of a sibling or a child and you can see where you have little to no opportunity to work.

But what I'm saying is that they always seem to find some excuse as to why they are living the way they do. I'm sure there are plenty of work opportunities within walking distance.
And sure public transportaion costs money but what is it like $1.75. Even if you work at McDonalds you'll still make enough money to pay it. If public transportation is not an option,
there is always car-pooling. These people shouldn't expect to walk into a major corporation and be offered a six-figure salary.

I got tired of typing so my thought is'nt complete.