diplomacy or terrorism

[spookes]

There are those that believe the U.S. and other governments should talk to terrorist states like Iran and Syria. But in all honesty why would they want to?

I'll use The U.S. as an example. Just so you know I am neither Republican nor Democrat. I am an extremely fiscally conservative Libertarian with strong shades of environmentalist mixed in.

Now the U.S. really isn't interested in diplomatic relations with terrorist states because the existence of a decentralized but well funded and organized enemy is the wet dream of governments all around the world. Terrorists and Islamic extremists are the perfect, perpetual enemy, one that can't be defeated in any meaningful way militarily, cannot be subdued by economic sanctions because it is too easy to funnel money to them through the religious infrastructure they hide within. And there are too many true believers that will blindly follow the orders of their religious leaders. Leaders who take advantage of the ignorance and lack of education of their followers in order to get them to commit violence to further their political ambitions in the name of religion.

Let's face it, since the fall of the Soviet Union and the failure of Communism there, we have been looking for the next enemy. As far as the U.S. is concerned, terrorism is better than communism.

[8th]

There is no 'talking' or 'reasoning' with terrorist states like iran or syria. The reason we were able to deal with the soviet union is because of mutual assured destruction. They knew if they launched on us we would launch on them. And they did not want to die, the wanted to stay in power. The difference is the leader of Iran WANTS to die for his cause. These people WANT to die. You cannot reason with the unreasonable or present logical arguments to the insane.

[azy]

There is no 'talking' or 'reasoning' with terrorist states like iran or syria. The difference is the leader of Iran WANTS to die for his cause. These people WANT to die. You cannot reason with the unreasonable or present logical arguments to the insane.

this is the most illogical thing i've ever heard, and in my opinion is so typical. "we dont understand, we dont want to understand, thats crazy and illogical, lets kill it"

thats a wonderful way to move things forward..

whats really caused more problems in the past 10 years, so called Islamic Terrorists and Fundamentalism, or Zionists and Neo-Conservatism?

[8th]

Originally Posted by azy

this is the most illogical thing i've ever heard, and in my opinion is so typical. "we dont understand, we dont want to understand, thats crazy and illogical, lets kill it"

I did not make up the fact they wish to die for their cause. That is what they say. It is the most honorable death to islamofacists to commit suicide and take innocent life. Thats how they see it. And if you im 'lying' or 'making it up' then i believe you are the one that doesn't understand the world your living in. They are actively trying to murder you and your family. Its not a secret, they proclaim it everyday.

Originally Posted by azy

whats really caused more problems in the past 10 years, so called Islamic Terrorists and Fundamentalism, or Zionists and Neo-Conservatism?

islamofacism. Do you believe that israel and america are attempting to take over the world and create a one-world judeochristain nation and wipe out all the non-believers? Because that is what islamofacism are trying to accomplish. Once again, don't take my word for it, listen to what these homicidal maniacs say.

[optikaL`]

The problem is that most of the Middle East looks at the US as terrorists. Truthfully, if you look at it objectively, who can blame them?

In the end, we have to face the brutal truth. We created these terrorists groups. In our blind hatred for communism, simply because its anti-religious, anti-capitalism, we single handidly (well, us and Britain) created every one of these groups. Iran wouldn't even be half the problem it currently was if we never went against their democratic government in favor of the Shah. Why did we do this? Oil. We did that to save our own pockets, and for such, we deserve whatever shit Iran hands us. You reap what you fucking sew.

Then what happened? They were overthrown due to the Iranian people knowing that the Shah was nothing more than an American puppet. This is why Iranian's have such hatred for the US. For all the US showboats as being a bringer of democracy and freedom, we single handidly sold out the entire Iranian nation for about five bucks a barrel. How different could've Iran been if say, we aided their push for democracy? This is why I do nothing but laugh when we claim that we're bringing democracy to the world.

The US training of Al-Qaeda is well noted, so theres no need to delve into that can of worms.

One of our biggest supporters in the Middle East, we invaded without reason. If you claim we had even the slightest reason to go into Iraq without the UN's backing, you're a fucking tool. Iraq was a secular government. There were absolutely no ties to the Suddam's government and Islamic extremists. He was against Al-Qaeda and was labeled as an infidel by Osama himself. WMD's? Fuck off. We only knew of his previous supply BECAUSE WE KEPT THE RECEIPTS. Why did we go after him? Because America is being run by fucking morons. No, I'm not talking about Bush, but the real people in power. The people funding presidential elections, the real money makers.

Our economy was hurting so the good old hawks, never upgrading their mentality, simply equated war to money. What better way to boost the economy and try to look like good guys to the Middle East? Dolts. The reason why half the Middle East hate us so much is due to Desert Storm. Not the war itself, but the fact we've placed so many military bases over there afterwards. If someone who beat up your neighbor and took away another one's only chance at freedom moved into your backyard, you'd be plenty pissed as well. American's are too pampered, too self centered to ever look at things from another perspective. If you're against us, you're a terrorists or unpatriotic. Never once seeing that the entire situation is shades of gray, and both sides have just cause for what they believe.

What if Iraq's newly found democracy said that they'd no longer supply the US with oil and it actually voted in an Islamic fundamental dictatorship? You think we'd allow that? No, we wouldn't. SO HOW IS THAT DEMOCRACY? It only proves we're there for our own interests. We're doing nothing but trying to play Risk by placing strongholds near our enemies and creating puppet governments. We don't give two shits about the Iraqi people, or we wouldn't have blown them to shit in Desert Storm.

In conclusion, we're the hand that set these time bombs, and as long as we keep juggling them they're bound to go off in our face sometime.

[8th]

i agree with alot of what you said. We obviously funded and trained the taliban. But at that time, we saw the russians as a bigger threat. Can you blame us? And yes, we royaly screwed things up in Iran. In Iraq, that was just a matter of time. They just said fuck off to the UN [the useless debating society] for over 10 years. We couldnt let them hold out any longer. They kicked out the inspectors and refused to hold up there end of the deal, so we invaded. It was probably the right thing to do, but we went about it the wrong way. Countless mistakes were made. But we arent the cause of all muslim extremism. Extremists muslims have been trying to take over the world before any of this happened. there are ongoing conflicts around the world that are islamofacists that cant get along with there neighbors [14muslimconflicts]
we are not the cause. They blame everything on us, but this is bigger than us and has been going on before the US.

[optikaL`]

If Iraq continued to ignore the UN, then we should've let the UN fall on it's face. Show the world how pointless the UN currently is. Point blank, the UN doesn't do shit. But by going about it the way we did we gave the UN a perfect example of why a country shouldn't go against them. Look at what are "week long war" turned out to be. If we let the UN fail in the matter, would it hurt us? Not at all. Saddam didn't have a problem with us, or Israel for that matter. Even if he did produce WMD's, the only thing he'd do is either go after Kuwait a second time or go after the Saudi oil. If Saddam did produce a sufficient bomb, you can bet we'd supply Saudi Arabia one for some oil perks. Shit, if anything he'd help us against the war on terror since he despised Islamic fundamentalists.

I know why we really went to war with Iraq. Saudi Arabia's biggest threat and enemy was Saddam's Ba'ath regime. We take out Iraq for them, they promise more barrels to the US which will be a big deal now that China is requiring more and more oil. In the looming threat of peak oil, this deal could be worth trillions. With that, we also can put in a puppet government in Iraq, solidifying the US as the main country for their own oil export. You know what, if they just came out and said that, I'd agree with it more than the bullshit they're saying now. We're not over there for freedom or democracy, unless it benefits us. We're not the world police. We're not the UN. Therefor we CAN go to war simply for our own benefit. Don't put on a fascade to try to sell me some bullshit line about bringing their people freedom.

If we cared about their freedom Bush Sr. would've gave it to them last time rather than throwing an entire population under the bus when he gave Saddam back the country. All those people we asked to rebel against Saddam, the ones we said we'd protect and would have their freedom, were now systematically killed for treason. Legally, Saddam was well within his own power and right to do this too, thats the sad part. I'm surprised any Iraqi's welcomed us with open arms after what happened in the aftermath of Desert Storm. I know if a country did that to me, I'd be blowing their marines to hell and back as well. Would I care if I was being labeled as a terrorist? Not in the slightest. Like we both feel, the UN can go fuck themselves. Do I care about Geneva convention? Fuck no. I'd care about my country and my family, the same people the US left to rot before, why would I believe they're going to do anything different this time?

If our country was lead by people other than those benefiting from oil profits, we would be pushing ethanol fuel much harder. Ethanol IS the future. Countries such as Brazil already run their entire country on self made ethanol. They are almost totally independent. We wouldn't even have to deal with these countries in the Middle East if our leaders got their heads out of their own ass - well, actually out of their own pockets. Ethanol might actually cost more per barrel than oil currently is at, depending on what crop we choose to use, but I'd rather our hard earned money circulate back into our own economy rather than go to another country, especially one that might be using that same money to fund terrorists cells. This is what we lost after the 70's, the pride of American made items. This is why corporations outsource now.

Our own greed and short sightedness got us into this mess. We, as citizens, want the cheapest product not thinking about how many billions we're sending to other countries when spending a few dollars more would circulate back into our own economies by way of US employees.

[8th]

Originally Posted by optikaL`

If our country was lead by people other than those benefiting from oil profits, we would be pushing ethanol fuel much harder. Ethanol IS the future. Countries such as Brazil already run their entire country on self made ethanol. They are almost totally independent. We wouldn't even have to deal with these countries in the Middle East if our leaders got their heads out of their own ass - well, actually out of their own pockets. Ethanol might actually cost more per barrel than oil currently is at, depending on what crop we choose to use, but I'd rather our hard earned money circulate back into our own economy rather than go to another country, especially one that might be using that same money to fund terrorists cells. This is what we lost after the 70's, the pride of American made items. This is why corporations outsource now.

I agree completely. We need to become energy independent and quit depending on people that want to kill us. Not only ethonal, but we could get into Coal-to-Oil and we could become energy independent in 10 years. I dont agree with you 'the reall reason' we went to iraq argument, but at least it is a well thought out agrument. And yeah, we shouldn't say that bullshit how its 'all for the world.' We do things for our own benefits, as we should.

[optikaL`]

Agreed. We are a single country. Our leaders' first concern should always be the US and its citizens. Like I said, we should just call a spade a spade. We're over there to secure resources for our own country. When we wear this "World Police" badge and then do things that are obviously only beneficial to ourselves, it really hurts our image. If we'll lie about why we're engaging in wars, other countries will look at us with concern wondering what else we're willing to lie about. Whats the UN going to do if we said "We're engaging Iraq to secure resources for our own country and in doing so removing a brutal dictator"? They can't do anything. They'd look like they wanted him to stay in power.

The real reason, wasn't THE real reason, but I'm sure it factored largely into the decision. I just worded it improperly.

[8th]

Yeah i agree with that. I dont think that was the sole reason we went into Iraq, but it was a plus.

Originally Posted by optikaL`

"We're engaging Iraq to secure resources for our own country and in doing so removing a brutal dictator"?

It would be great if politicans could just say what the mean. More people would trust Bush these days if he would have just said that. [along with the other reasons]

[spookes]

thanks for the feed back,
uppin thread still